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		<title>Chingoos II</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/12/21/chingoos-ii/</link>
		<comments>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/12/21/chingoos-ii/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[friendship]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[gospel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Church & Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Society]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elderj.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/chingoos-ii/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ladies and gentlemen, a blast from the past
A while ago I wrote about the theology of friendship, or rather the lack thereof in the contemporary church.  Recently a conversation with a dear Korean brother sparked some additional thoughts about friendship.
He mentioned that he thought, until he came to the U.S. very recently, that the [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=49&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p>Ladies and gentlemen, a blast from the past</p>
<p>A <a href="http://elderj.wordpress.com/2006/10/25/chingoos-friends/">while ago I</a> wrote about the theology of friendship, or rather the lack thereof in the contemporary church.  Recently a conversation with a dear Korean brother sparked some additional thoughts about friendship.</p>
<p>He mentioned that he thought, until he came to the U.S. very recently, that the idea of friendship was universal, and that in Korea to say that you are someone’s friend is to be entirely devoted to them.  A friend would share the last piece of bread or even underwear (his words not mine) if need be.  As we talked about this over dinner, my American born Korean friends and I shared with him a bit about how friendship works in the U.S. and I compared the type of friendship he described as being closer to what we say about family – about our brothers and sisters.  He responded with disdainful amazement.  Family, he said, is not your choice, and therefore does not carry the same weight as friendship.</p>
<p>This interaction could be easily chalked up to cultural differences, and indeed it is.  Many Africans are surprised by the American idea of setting an appointment with a friend, and would think nothing of walking hand in hand with a friend of the same sex down the street.  There is, however, more to it than just difference in cultures and there is perhaps something that can be learned theologically from the way different groups conceptualize friendship.</p>
<p>In Jesus’ last address to his disciples before his crucifixion he says pointedly, “I no longer call you friends, because I have told you everything.”  Before this however he says, “You are my friends if you do what I command.”  To my western American ears, this sounds absolutely antithetical to my understanding of what a friend is.  To place friendship and obedience in the same sentence seems almost heretical.  In fact friends are usually those people who pointedly DON’T tell us what to do and to whom we have no obligation to obey.  The greatest love, Jesus says, is demonstrated when a man lays down his life for his friends.  I would venture to say that this goes far beyond sharing underwear.</p>
<p>The question that naturally arises is whether Jesus’ words apply only to the unique nature of his relationship to the disciples or if they are more broadly applicable to friendship.  Indeed I believe this is the presupposition most of us bring to the text.  Yet there is nothing in the text that directly states that this is his assumption, and throughout scripture we find friendship elevated to a high position as in the case of David and Jonathan.</p>
<p>What are we to do with this?  It seems to me that friendship is one place where American culture has departed far from the way it is understood in scripture.  This is itself is not inherently problematic, because scripture was written in a certain cultural context with assumptions that are not immediately transferable to the American situation.  However, by demoting friendship, or rather elevating other relationships, like marriage, we have placed more burden on the institution of marriage than it was intended to support.  Single people are thereby consigned to the margins of church life and either pitied for their status (women) or held in suspicion (men).  Is there a way in which non-marital emotionally intimate relationship, i.e. friendship, can be restored to a proper place in Christian understanding and practice?  If such a understanding of friendship could be restored it might provide an option for those persons that are commanded by scripture to live in abstinence, and yet who yearn for emotional intimacy which is denied them by the current ways relationships are handled within the church.</p>
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		<title>Are Asians Sell-outs?</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/are-asians-sell-outs/</link>
		<comments>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/are-asians-sell-outs/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Asian American]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[culture & faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[worship]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[asian american christian]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[asian american church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Black American]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Black Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity & culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cultural captivity of the church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Deadly Vipers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ethnicity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Faith and culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Francis Chan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[multiethnic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[racism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sell out]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elderj.wordpress.com/?p=172</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the heels of the rapidly subsiding waves of controversy caused by the &#8220;SPLASH&#8221; of the Deadly Vipers controversy (read more: here, here, here, and here), I find myself  puzzling anew over the whole issue of how Asian-American identity is constructed, what is the relationship between ethnic identity and faith, how and whether to speak [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=172&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p>On the heels of the rapidly subsiding waves of controversy caused by the &#8220;SPLASH&#8221; of the Deadly Vipers controversy (read more: <strong><a href="http://nextgenerasianchurch.com/2009/11/11/%E2%80%9Cget-over-it%E2%80%9D-not-so-fast-my-thoughts-on-the-deadly-vipers-controversy/">here</a></strong>, <strong><a href="http://profrah.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/final-reflections-on-deadly-viper-zondervan/">here</a></strong>, <strong><a href="http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/deadly-vipers-mike-foster-jud-wilhite-soong-chan-rah-chuck-norris-joyluck-club-angry-asian-man-wanna-be-ninjas-and-everyone-else/">here</a></strong>, and<strong> <a href="http://morethanservingtea.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/i-dont-want-to-hear-im-sorry-if-youre-offended-or-im-sorry-but/">here</a></strong>), I find myself  puzzling anew over the whole issue of how Asian-American identity is constructed, what is the relationship between ethnic identity and faith, <strong><a href="http://nextgenerasianchurch.com/2009/11/25/cant-i-even-speak/">how and whether to speak up and at what cost</a>, and <a href="http://singingtigger.blogspot.com/">even how to bring others along on the journey without only being angry</a></strong>.</p>
<p>It strikes me that one of the basic underlying struggles is rooted in the question of what it means to be an authentically ethnic and Christian person when one either is or is immediately descended from people who intentionally forsook their ethno-cultural matrix in order to make a home in North America.  Or in other words, <strong><a href="http://nextgenerasianchurch.com/2009/05/02/is-francis-chan-a-sell-out/">maybe it isn&#8217;t just the Francis Chan&#8217;s of the world who are sell outs</a></strong>.  Of course no one is actually calling the man a sell-out, it&#8217;s just making a point and raising a question about how much one&#8217;s ethnicity ought to be in play in an intentional kind of way, especially as a Christian.</p>
<p>But there is a larger and more problematically complex issue at stake here.  The racial history of the United States has created an oddly distorted racialized system that has been a double-edged sword for Asian Americans.  East Asian immigrants particularly enjoy quite remarkable economic and educational success in the United States and Canada.  And the reality of immigration is such that those who chose to leave their home countries came generally (though not always) with quite significant economic, educational, or entrepreneurial drive that made their ability to climb the ladder of economic opportunity much more likely than those left behind in their native lands .</p>
<p>This has been true of most immigrant groups who generally outpace natives in economic achievement after the first generation, however the racialized nature of American society has meant that such economic advancement has rebounded to create a sort of idealized image of Asian Americans that is the foundation stone of the &#8220;model minority&#8221; myth; a<em> myth alternately decried and embraced by Asian Americans since it provides needed distance from association with non-model minority &#8212; Black Americans</em>.  <strong>So the image of the hard-working, compliant, family focused and theologically orthodox Asian American who is educated at the finest evangelical seminaries is set against the decidedly lazy, angry, irresponsible and theologically liberal Black who is feared rather than loved</strong>. (not to mention Latinos and Hispanics!!) This of course ignores intentionally the many many lazy, non-hard working, irresponsible, dysfunctional Asians both here and abroad.  It is quite easy to have  a picture of relative success when you leave all the unsuccessful relatives back at home.</p>
<p>Of course this is the unintended consequence of the wholesale purchase of the American dream that has been sanctified via the dual cultures of Asian educational idolatry and American materialist pursuit.  A consequence that is further illustrated by the uncertain sound of the trumpet blast of justice against biases and stereotypes such as those employed during the Deadly Vipers controversy.  It is a bit challenging to sound the alarm against the system abusing, misrepresenting, and dishonoring Asian culture when ones own success and acceptance within America has been predicated upon the abandonment of that <strong>same</strong> culture or at least those parts of culture which are inconvenient and represent impediments to achieving the American dream.  <em>It is a bit hypocritical to condemn the exploitation of ones culture by others when you unwilling to pay the price of defending it</em>.  Certainly it is no virtue to continue to enjoy the privileges associated with being the &#8220;model minority&#8221; while wanting to avoid the quite high costs of being like that problematic other minority group that&#8217;s always complaining about something, i.e. Black people.</p>
<p>I say it with love and respect and those who know me can attest to my bonafides in terms of deep and abiding compassion (in the original sense of &#8220;suffering with&#8221;) Asian Americans, that AA have long enjoyed the fruits of the labors of others, notably Blacks and to a lesser extent Latinos, in plowing up the very hard ground of racism and racialization in the society.  We have often been (and I speak here of Black Americans) on the &#8220;point&#8221; of major issues, speaking out, expressing anger, demanding redress and in so doing have taken many hits while others have slipped in on the backs of our misfortune and in the bloody footsteps of our sacrifice.  It has been worth it.   <em>Deadly Vipers would never have been done with an African theme</em>; the writers wouldn&#8217;t have written it thus and Zondervan would never have dared to publish it.  However it has come at a cost, a high one.  Are you willing to pay it?</p>
<p><strong>A sell-out is one who bargains away his own identity or people in exchange for acceptance and benefits afforded by those in power</strong>.  Asian Americans cannot continue sell out their cultural inheritance and then expect others to honor it.  They (I started to write &#8220;we&#8221;) cannot ask others to pay the full cost of understanding and appreciating the nuances of Asian culture while failing to be educated and deeply appreciating what it is all about.  They cannot continue embracing unthinkingly the theological and culture paradigms of White American evangelicalism which took root in a very different cultural soil while demanding a theology that influences and is influenced by the nuances of Asian American identity and understanding.  Asian Americans cannot decry the maladaptive use of their cultural symbols, language, and ideas by others while maintaining a steadfast refusal in their churches to demonstrate the redemptive reuse and re-adaptation of those same symbols, language and ideas to the glory of God.   It cannot be enough to say, &#8220;we are not your stereotypes&#8221; and remain unwilling to engage in the creative process of culture making, of dethroning Euro-American cultural idols of how church is to be done, and of creating an authentic Asian-American Christianity that is more than a<strong> <a href="http://elderj.wordpress.com/2007/02/28/worship-identity/">bad system poorly imitated</a>.</strong></p>
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		<title>On a day with much to complain about</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/on-a-day-with-much-to-complain-about/</link>
		<comments>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/on-a-day-with-much-to-complain-about/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[gospel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thanksgiving]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elderj.wordpress.com/?p=236</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I choose to give thanks.
God is good.  His mercies endure&#8230; they persist&#8230; they sustain&#8230; they nourish&#8230; they create space for human frailty to be redeemed&#8230; they transform&#8230; they admonish&#8230; they renew&#8230; they bless&#8230; they are the lifeblood of every believer and the unseen sustainer of those who do not&#8230; they wash&#8230; they clarify&#8230; they challenge&#8230; [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=236&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p>I choose to give thanks.</p>
<p>God is good.  His mercies endure&#8230; they persist&#8230; they sustain&#8230; they nourish&#8230; they create space for human frailty to be redeemed&#8230; they transform&#8230; they admonish&#8230; they renew&#8230; they bless&#8230; they are the lifeblood of every believer and the unseen sustainer of those who do not&#8230; they wash&#8230; they clarify&#8230; they challenge&#8230; they illumine&#8230; they clean away the accumulated detritus of a ill-lived life.. they are enough&#8230; they are more than enough.. they are what I need.. they elude me through my own stubborn indifference&#8230; they pursue me with unrelenting fervor.</p>
<p>That is what I&#8217;m grateful for.</p>
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		<title>The Faces on the Stage</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/the-faces-on-the-stage/</link>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Asian American]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Society]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[culture & faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[gospel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Black American]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Catalyst conference]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian racism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity & culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[David Park]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Deadly Vipers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelicalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Francis Chan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Passion 2010]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[race]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[racism]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elderj.wordpress.com/?p=227</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#8220;It&#8217;s not about the faces on the stage, but the One who&#8217;s truly famous.&#8221;
So says the opening promo line on the Passion 2010 website highlighting the speakers for this years conference.  The leaders of the Passion conference say, convincingly I might add, that their aim is to, &#8220;see a generation stake their lives on what [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=227&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><blockquote><p>&#8220;It&#8217;s not about <strong>the faces on the stage</strong>, but the One who&#8217;s truly famous.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>So says the opening promo line on the <a href="http://www.268generation.com/passion2010/">Passion 2010 website</a> highlighting the speakers for this years conference.  The leaders of the Passion conference say, convincingly I might add, that their aim is to, &#8220;see <strong>a generation</strong> stake their lives on what matters most.&#8221;  Praise God for such a vision!  And praise God for the organizers of this event.  Praise God for the godly men (and couple of women) who are listed as &#8220;leaders&#8221; for the event.  Now, can we just be a <em>little</em> bit more honest about &#8220;the generation&#8221; and about those &#8220;faces on the stage?&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://elderj.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/passion2010.jpg"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-230" title="passion2010" src="http://elderj.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/passion2010.jpg?w=300&#038;h=240" alt="" width="300" height="240" /></a>The generation the leaders of Passion are aiming to see stake their lives are suburban, upper middle class, overwhelmingly White evangelical kids.  Everything about the conference and the conference website is geared towards that demographic and though they may tout international credentials, this is far from an international conference.  These same kids will worship in much they same style they would at a secular rock concert though to Christian music.  They will surge and sing.  They will cry and commit.  And they will hear from speakers who look and sound just like them (with the noted exception of Francis Chan &#8212; <a href="http://nextgenerasianchurch.com/2009/05/02/is-francis-chan-a-sell-out/">and the word is still out on whether he&#8217;s a sellout or not</a>).</p>
<p><strong>The faces on the stage matter</strong>.  If they didn&#8217;t matter the organizers of Passion would not have rounded up the likes of John Piper, Louis Giglio, or the David Crowder band.  These folks are some of the superstars of the evangelical church world, and if we could be honest, they are the reason why many of the folks signing up for Passion are signing up.</p>
<p>They matter for the same reason the <a href="http://profrah.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/response-from-one-of-the-authors-of-deadly-viper/">Deadly Viper&#8217;s controversy</a> was indeed a real controversy.  It is not without significance that Deadly Vipers was initially introduced during a <a href="http://www.catalystconference.com/">Catalyst conference</a> (at least I think it was).  The stunning ignorance (and quite ready repentance) of the authors of Deadly Vipers and of Zondervan is not theirs alone.  The evangelical community within the United States over and again continues to demonstrate a tone deaf ignorance bordering on stubborn hard heartedness when it comes to issues of race and ethnicity.</p>
<p>Why is Passion able to say without apparent irony that <em>the faces on the stage don&#8217;t matter</em> in a world where the fabric of evangelicalism even within the United States is incredibly diverse?  Why did Zondervan <em>stick their foot in the crap pile again</em> after only a few years ago <a href="http://ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=3488">Lifeway</a> was smacked down for producing other racial insensitive material?  Why is any of this news to the large number of White evangelicals who honestly and with sincerity desire to work to proclaim the gospel effectively to all people?</p>
<p>Because White evangelicals live socially, economically, and indeed theologically in a world untouched by other perspectives and increasingly are seeking to isolate themselves further by developing specialized ministries that cater only to themselves.  Call it FUBU for White people.</p>
<p>The truth is, the faces do matter.  And my White evangelical brothers under the skin had better be aware that it matters more than they think.  Every ethnic minority living under a dominant culture knows that it matters.  Think I&#8217;m wrong?  Spend any length of time in a foreign country and you&#8217;ll discover quickly just how welcome an American accent can be, or better yet join a church of a very different ethnicity than your own and immerse yourself.  You&#8217;ll quickly discover that it matters a lot more than you think to have someone who looks like you, who can at some level identify with your experience, and who can articulate in a culturally relevant way those things that matter most, is very important.  Call it the incarnation experience.  You see, none of us have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities.  That is to say, Jesus knows well what it is to enter fully into the human experience and thus sympathizes with us in our own.</p>
<p>It is time for mistakes such as those embodied in Deadly Vipers and Rickshaw Rally to come to an end, and the Christian community ought to be the leaders in this effort.</p>
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		<title>Here&#8217;s to the Ordinary Christian</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/heres-to-the-ordinary-christian/</link>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 02:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[This post is about ordinary Christians.
Not that there is any sort of person who is ever really ordinary.
But there are ordinary Christians who simply want to follow Jesus.  They are people like so many folks at my church who simply want to faithfully follow Jesus.  They don&#8217;t know anything about blogging.  They aren&#8217;t riled up [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=209&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p style="text-align:center;">This post is about ordinary Christians.</p>
<p>Not that there is any sort of person who is ever really ordinary.</p>
<p>But there are ordinary Christians who simply want to follow Jesus.  They are people like so many folks at my church who <img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-224" title="prayer" src="http://elderj.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/prayer.jpg?w=315&#038;h=236" alt="prayer" width="315" height="236" />simply want to faithfully follow Jesus.  They don&#8217;t know anything about blogging.  They aren&#8217;t riled up about questions of what Bible translation to use, or the proper English translation of some Greek phrase, or issues of &#8220;social justice&#8221; (whatever that means).</p>
<p>They go to church.  They pray.  They give. They sing in the choir. They try to honor God the best way they can.</p>
<p>So often as a &#8220;professional Christian worker&#8221; ministering in the university context and with access to all the latest and greatest theological, eschatological, and philosophical debates and questions, it becomes very easy to grow arrogant and dismissive of those who do not.  Why is this?  Quite honestly it is because we believe that greater knowledge equates to greater spiritual maturity or spirituality.  We believe this, despite all evidence to the contrary.   Yet, if this were true, one would find the most faithful, most mature, and most biblically literate Christians among those who have the most access.  The testimony of history and indeed of scripture tells us that this is not true.</p>
<p>Much is said about Jesus&#8217; ministry to the poor.  I don&#8217;t know if it is so accurate to describe his ministry in that way.  There were, to be sure, poor among his followers.  But the bulk of his followers were what we might call working class or middle class (though such classes were functionally poor in Roman society, socially they fit the description).  They were people who were lectured to by the more learned among them about the hows and whys of following the covenant.  And they too were looking for the messiah to come.  It was among the most educated classes that the greatest disputes and arguments about theology broke out.</p>
<p>The arguments among the teachers of the Law are much like the arguments today among the blogosphere as people debate back and forth the fine points of the law.  We split hairs over exceedingly minor interpretive issues in the Greek text which make absolutely no difference to the maturity or discipleship of Christians for example.</p>
<p>I grew up in a church full of everyday, ordinary Christians.  I did not have the benefit of a seminary trained clerical staff, a full time paid youth minister, a library full of books on Christian doctrine.  I had rather, faithful Christians who loved the Lord, who cared deeply about seeing that we grew up in the fear of the Lord and had a reverence for scripture.  They wanted me to be filled with Holy Spirit and to live a life pleasing to God.  They laid the foundation for my faith.  They were serious believers.  They obeyed the Bible as best they could.</p>
<p>I tip my hat to them.  Ordinary spirit filled saints who prayed, preached, and taught me the way of salvation with little more than a KJV Bible, a United Gospel Press Sunday school book, and a decrepit totally useless blackboard.</p>
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		<title>Why the TNIV&#8217;s demise makes me happy&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/why-the-tnivs-demise-makes-me-happy/</link>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 04:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[bible translation]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[Well, it doesn&#8217;t really; I mean, not in any &#8220;real&#8221; way.  As I said before, I never liked the TNIV and don&#8217;t care for the NIV either for that matter.    Part of this is frankly because I tend to prefer &#8220;word for word&#8221; translation over &#8220;dynamic equivalence&#8221; that the NIV and TNIV employs.  The other [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=221&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p>Well, it doesn&#8217;t really; I mean, not in any &#8220;real&#8221; way.  As I said before, I never liked the TNIV and don&#8217;t care for the NIV either for that matter.    Part of this is frankly because I tend to prefer &#8220;word for word&#8221; translation over &#8220;dynamic equivalence&#8221; that the NIV and TNIV employs.  The other reason is because, as I said in my comments on the preceding post, I believe the publication of the TNIV as well as it&#8217;s withdrawal has more to do with profits than anything else.  But allow me to lay out a bit more my larger issue with English language Bible translation.</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>1) Arguments over Bible translations (whether NIV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, etc.) provide cover for Christian intellectual elitism</strong></span></p>
<p>Christianity is a translated religion.  Unlike Islam, we do not hold to any particular language being <strong>the </strong>revealed language of God and scripture.  Therefore the words of Jesus (perhaps spoken in Aramaic) were translated into Greek without losing their potency.  Reading the Bible in French or English or Twi or Russian does not represent a deficiency, but the heart of the missionary impulse.  However the way debates over translation occurs communicates that unless <em><strong>one is fluent in the so-called &#8220;original languages&#8221; one cannot really know what God is saying.</strong></em> This is inherently elitist as the vast majority of Christians in the world who have ever lived and who currently do live may not even be literate, much less experts in ancient Greek.  <strong><em>Is their understanding of God, ethical practice, and Christian maturity therefore inevitably compromised?</em></strong></p>
<p>This is not to say that translation with great care is unimportant.  It is very important, but if we communicate, however unintentionally, that you &#8220;really need to read it in the Greek to understand&#8221; <strong><em>we inevitably establish a hierarchy to which only an elite and privileged few have access.</em></strong></p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>2) The proliferation of English translations in the last 100 years has done NOTHING to advance Christian maturity or knowledge.</strong></span></p>
<p>Faithful translation is important as I have said, and that has ostensibly been the motive for updating translations, in addition to keeping pace with new or better source documents that have come to light.  But is hardly evident that these multiple versions have done anything to increase the amount of scripture knowledge or biblical practice.  Indeed I would venture to guess (anecdotally to be sure) that <strong><em>those Christian &#8220;neanderthals&#8221; who hold onto the KJV probably have  more extensive Biblical knowledge than many others.</em></strong></p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>3) The proliferation of English translation is driven by profit and is evidence of an exceedingly materialistic self referential culture.</strong></span></p>
<p>Many translations are copyrighted.  Book publishers make lots of money selling Bibles.  There is great incentive to come out with a &#8220;NEW &amp; IMPROVED&#8221; version every few years.  We buy them because we can, and because we want a version that &#8220;fits&#8221; us.  This is related to my last point.</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>4) (Not the last point but related to the previous one) The English language has not changed so much in the last hundred years and certainly last fifty years to justify the new translations.</strong></span></p>
<p>The 400 year dominance (and continued strength) of the KJV meant that much of the language was indeed very different than contemporary English and quite opaque to some (though not so much as to be unintelligible. After all it is still a leading version and in some ways superior; KJV English conveys continuing present tense better than contemporary English) and therefore made some sense to update.  Since then&#8230; not so much.</p>
<p><span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>5) The proliferation of translations is in some ways a capitulation to the Christian disengagement with shaping culture.</strong></span></p>
<p>The chief justification for many modern versions is to faithful translate the scripture into &#8220;today&#8217;s English.&#8221;  Well this is fine as far as it goes. <strong><em>BUT, none of these many translations, partially due to their abundance and partially due to their linguistic poverty, actually affect the culture into which they are cast. </em></strong></p>
<p>The KJV, for all its flaws (and they are many) was written in a language that though long &#8220;obsolete&#8221; retains a poetry and magnificence that remains unsurpassed, much like the language of Shakespeare (written in the same era).  Many contemporary versions, though technically superior, frankly lack any beauty and therefore are less powerful in their effect in shaping culture, both within and outside of the church.</p>
<p>Now it can be argued that aesthetic value is less important than accuracy, but I disagree.  Aesthetics have a truth value all their own and while &#8220;though I walk through the darkest valley&#8221; may be a more technically accurate translation, it does not speak in the same way as &#8220;though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death&#8221; and is therefore lest likely to be memorized, or to shape our worldview.  <strong><em>Bad writing cannot be covered up by saying &#8220;the translation is technically accurate.&#8221; </em></strong></p>
<p>Additionally the multitude of translations means that Christians have lost something very important: <strong><em>a common language, which is important in creating and reinforcing and yea verily, shaping our common dialogue and culture.</em></strong></p>
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		<title>Ding Dong the Witch is Dead: TNIV is gone gone gone!</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead-tniv-is-gone-gone-gone/</link>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[Is there any doubt from the title of this post that I don&#8217;t exactly have great feelings of sadness for the demise of the TNIV?  It is perhaps not so appropriate to call the TNIV &#8220;the witch&#8221; since it is a &#8220;faithful and scholarly translation&#8221; but there you have it.  There are others for whom [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=211&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p>Is there any doubt from the title of this post that I don&#8217;t exactly have great feelings of sadness for the demise of the TNIV?  It is perhaps not so appropriate to call the TNIV &#8220;the witch&#8221; since it is a &#8220;faithful and scholarly translation&#8221; but there you have it.  <em><strong>There are <a href="http://headsparks.com/2009/09/02/lost-in-translation-the-untimely-demise-of-the-tniv/">others for whom the TNIV has been an important resource for their own lives and ministry and they are sad to see it go</a></strong></em>.  Daniel writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>As someone who communicates from the Bible on a weekly basis, I have found the TNIV to be a faithful, accurate and scholarly update to the best-selling NIV translation many of us grew up with.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well  God bless him.  <a href="http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-tniv-bible-translation-gets-the-ax/">Eugene Cho also is lamenting its demise</a>. I personally have used the TNIV on occasion (usually because there was no other option available) but have never purchased one and wouldn&#8217;t unless I had no other option.  I was opposed to its publication for a number of reasons, not the least of which was the gender inclusive language.  From <em><strong><a href="http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2009/09/breaking_transl.html">Christianity Today</a></strong></em>:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Whatever its strengths were, the TNIV divided the evangelical Christian community,&#8221; said Zondervan president Moe Girkins. &#8220;So as we launch this new NIV, we will discontinue putting out new products with the TNIV.&#8221;</p>
<p>Girkins expects the TNIV and the existing edition of the NIV to phase out over two years or so as <img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-213" title="tniv-study-bible_0" src="http://elderj.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/tniv-study-bible_0.jpg?w=169&#038;h=256" alt="tniv-study-bible_0" width="169" height="256" />products are replaced. &#8220;It will be several years before you won&#8217;t be able to buy the TNIV off a bookshelf,&#8221; she said.</p>
<p>&#8220;We are correcting the mistakes in the past,&#8221; Girkins said. &#8220;Being as transparent as possible is part of that. This decision was made by the board in the last 10 days.&#8221; She said the transparency is part of an effort to overhaul the NIV &#8220;in a way that unifies Christian evangelicalism.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;The first mistake was the NIVi,&#8221; Danby said. &#8220;The second was freezing the NIV. The third was the process of handling the TNIV.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I have no quarrels with or suspicions about the motives of the scholars who did the work of translation for the TNIV.  I am certain (as certain as anyone can be about such things) that their motives were honorable and pure before God.  This is true even as it relates to the issue of gender inclusive language.</p>
<blockquote><p>Doug Moo, chairman of the the Committee on Bible Translation (which is the body responsible for the translation) said the committee has not yet decided how much the 2011 edition will include the gender-inclusive language that riled critics of the TNIV.</p>
<p>&#8220;We felt certainly at the time it was the right thing to do, that the language was moving in that direction,&#8221; Moo said. &#8220;All that is back on the table as we reevaluate things this year. This has been a time over the last 15 to 20 years in which the issue of the way to handle gender in English has been very much in flux, in process, in development. And things are changing quickly and so we are going to look at all of that again as we produce the 2011 NIV.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>The &#8220;flux&#8221; to which Moo refers concerning the English language is actually overstated.  Neutered language is the norm in academic English usage and has moved  into common usage beyond the academy due mostly to rather aggressive efforts to mold popular use.  <em>Unlike the evolution of the English language generally, the neutering of the language happened intentionally as a way to counter what were considered to be the oppressive patriarchal assumptions embedded in the language.</em></p>
<p><strong>Why this gender thing matters, but not really<br />
</strong></p>
<p>In so many ways, it honestly doesn&#8217;t. Though I am no Greek scholar, I am aware that in many places the language used is, in some ways, generic, that is, it does not specify gender, or more specifically, sex.  To neuter the original language in this way in order to conform to contemporary English usage norms makes a lot of good sense and doesn&#8217;t fundamentally challenge any doctrines of the church.</p>
<p>In other ways though, the neutering of language is quite significant as it says something powerful about how the church interacts with culture.   It is in fact only the newest manifestation of the church&#8217;s efforts to respond to and speak relevantly to a culture that is rapidly becoming post-Christan and into which the church&#8217;s voice as a culture shaping agent is less and less important.  The multiplication of English language translations in the last century is testimony of the increasing marginalization of the church in society and every attempt at relevance reinforces greater and greater alienation.  But more on that in a later post.  In the mean time:</p>
<p><span style="text-align:center; display: block;"><a href="http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead-tniv-is-gone-gone-gone/"><img src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/McHyLKw5mHc/2.jpg" alt="" /></a></span></p>
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		<title>Hate is NOT too strong a word</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/hate-is-not-too-strong-a-word/</link>
		<comments>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/hate-is-not-too-strong-a-word/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[culture & faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ethnicity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evil]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[north korea]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elderj.wordpress.com/?p=203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I HATE this regime:

Al Jazeera English &#8211; Asia-Pacific &#8211; N Korea &#8216;tests weapons on children&#8217;
Shared via AddThis
There are no words strong enough to adequately explain quite how horrendous the scope of this evil.  And make no mistake, this is indeed evil.  When I read or hear people describe our own nation&#8217;s flaws and faults, or [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=203&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p>I HATE this regime:</p>
<p><img class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-205" title="north-korea1" src="http://elderj.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/north-korea1.jpg?w=300&#038;h=199" alt="north-korea1" width="300" height="199" /></p>
<p><a href="http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2009/07/20097165415127287.html">Al Jazeera English &#8211; Asia-Pacific &#8211; N Korea &#8216;tests weapons on children&#8217;</a></p>
<p>Shared via <a href="http://addthis.com">AddThis</a></p>
<p>There are no words strong enough to adequately explain quite how horrendous the scope of this evil.  And make no mistake, this is indeed evil.  When I read or hear people describe our own nation&#8217;s flaws and faults, or critique  our government for invading Iraq (a choice I did NOT support) I wonder if they have any notion of how truly exceptional the United States is.</p>
<p>It is not that we don&#8217;t have flaws.</p>
<p>We do.</p>
<p>It is not we have always done the right thing.</p>
<p>We have not.</p>
<p>But anything we&#8217;ve done at Guantanamo pales in comparison to this.</p>
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		<title>Somebody ought to testify</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/somebody-ought-to-testify/</link>
		<comments>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/somebody-ought-to-testify/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 02:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Black Church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[pentecostal church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[random]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Testify]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[testimony service]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[worship]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elderj.wordpress.com/?p=194</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#8220;First giving honor to God, who is the head of my life.  To the pastor, first lady, all the ministers, deacons, mothers, missionaries, saints &#38; friends&#8230;&#8221;
I&#8217;m sorry, you must have thought I was talking about this kind of testimony:
What I really mean is quite different, and its related to my post on Things I Miss [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=194&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p>&#8220;First giving honor to God, who is the head of my life.  To the pastor, first lady, all the ministers, deacons, mothers, missionaries, saints &amp; friends&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry, you must have thought I was talking about this kind of testimony:</p>
<div id="attachment_197" class="wp-caption aligncenter" style="width: 334px"><img class="size-medium wp-image-197" title="offset-hearing_030509" src="http://elderj.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/offset-hearing_0305092.jpg?w=324&#038;h=239" alt="Testimony Before Congress" width="324" height="239" /><p class="wp-caption-text">Testimony Before Congress</p></div>
<p>What I really mean is quite different, and its related to my post on <a href="http://elderj.wordpress.com/2007/02/05/things-i-miss-about-the-black-pentecostal-church/">Things I Miss About the Black Church</a>.</p>
<p>Giving a testimony in church is one of the most amazing and wonderful expressions of participatory worship you might imagine.    Each person that stands to testify gives a song, an inspiring story, shares a prayer request, exhorts the congregation,  unburdens themselves from the struggles of the week and allows the whole community of God&#8217;s people to laugh with them, cry with them, rejoice with them and yes, sometimes even roll their eyes at them.</p>
<p>It was funny to see the concerns of one group of folks as they <a href="http://www.reformedworship.org/magazine/article.cfm?article_id=1051">prepared for a testimony service that is upcoming</a>.  Being reformed, there is of course a great deal of course about maintaining proper order in the midst of it all.  One quote:</p>
<blockquote><p>one testimony service in the past had been      billed, at least to the worship leaders, as a “Spirit-Filled Free-for-All.”      A few songs were chosen to start things up, and then … whatever. There is      something exciting and spontaneous and … all right, authentic about that. I      get it. I even like it. But yikes! The Spirit leads us into freedom, but is      it freedom for “all”? Freedom to do anything? Does the Spirit work only in      the direction of liberation from perceived stricture and structure? Surely      this is appealing—especially to young people. But doesn’t the Holy Spirit      also work, as in Genesis 1, in the direction of creating order from chaos?      Finding true freedom only in slavery to Christ? How do we balance these two?</p></blockquote>
<p>I find their questions humorous, but understandable coming from their perspective.  What if the spirit gets out of control?  But it was the next section that made me laugh:</p>
<blockquote><p>How do we, as a worship team, as musicians, prepare for such      a service? Do we choose no songs at all ahead of time? Do we rehearse      anything? Do we wait and hope for students to suggest songs that we know? Do      we pray for the Spirit to move us in the moment, and move us to play      the same song in the same key? What if the Spirit tells us, like that old      joke has it, “Oops. You should done more planning.”</p>
<p>And what happens if someone’s testimony turns inappropriate? We can’t      control what folks will and won’t say…</p></blockquote>
<p>Well now that&#8217;s just part of the fun of a testimony service.  They could perhaps learn from these folks about how to manage a testimony service:</p>
<p><span style="text-align:center; display: block;"><a href="http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/somebody-ought-to-testify/"><img src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/T48t6FQXFRU/2.jpg" alt="" /></a></span></p>
<p>It may be perhaps difficult to understand what&#8217;s being said, but the scene in that church is pointedly NOT chaos, and there are rules of engagement that differ a bit from one church to another, but some which are commonly understood. Testimony service has a rhythm and flow all its own.  And musicians are just along for the ride.</p>
<p>Allow me to tell you some of these rules:</p>
<p>1) The testimony leader (usually an up and coming fiery preacher, or a missionary, or someone who can keep the crowd going) conducts the service.  If there aren&#8217;t a lot of people waiting to testify, you can just stand up and start, but if two or three stand up at a time, the testimony leader tells who can go first.</p>
<p>2) The testimony will also shut down the testimony if it goes too long or veers off into &#8220;crazy.&#8221;  They usually do this by at first saying things like, &#8220;Amen, Amen.  Praise God sister&#8221; in a calming voice.  They may also interrupt at what seems to be a pause in the testimony and make some remarks before moving on to the next person.  If its really bad they will collaborate with the organist to start a praise song to shut you down.</p>
<p>3) The testimony leader may take over your singing of a song if the singing is really bad</p>
<p>4) Your testimony should begin with giving honor to God in some way, acknowledging the leaders of the congregation and the pastor (whether present or absent) and should end with some sort of, &#8220;You all pray for me&#8221;</p>
<p>5) It is perfectable permissible to lead out in a song during testimony service, especially if you know the words and can sing.  but even if you don&#8217;t people will try to help you out.</p>
<p>6) Your testimony cannot take longer than about 3 minutes unless it is REALLY good and folks get to dancing and shouting from it.  If folks start doing this, then you are not permitted to come back at the end of the shouting session to resume your testimony unless YOU were the one dancing, and then only to give a closing.</p>
<p>I will close with a typical testimony that I might have heard growing up in the Universal Christian Holiness Church (yes, I know our church was the one holy catholic church)<br />
&#8220;Praise the Lord saints! Praise the Lord saints!  To the pastor, pulpit guest, deacons, missionaries, saints and friends. Truly we give honor to God today for all that he has been to us.  Down through the years, God has been good to me.  Earlier this week I was thinking back on some times when I thought I wasn&#8217;t gonna make it.  Thought I was gonna lose my mind.  But God!  But God!  Even this week, he keeps on blessing me, in spite of all the things I&#8217;ve done.  And I thank him for it. He&#8217;s been better than good.  You know I&#8217;ve been so worried lately; so many people being laid off, and the economy is down.  But God continues to provide for me and my family.   I think about all the young people running the streets and getting into trouble, and then just this week some of my nephews stopped by the house, and they aren&#8217;t doing all that they should be doing, but God has kept them from dangers seen and unseen.  They could be out here in the streets, but God continues to have mercy.  He&#8217;s been so good, I just can&#8217;t tell it all.  Pray for me saints, as I&#8217;m traveling next week that God would give me traveling mercies.  And pray that the Lord would help me to hold on until the end.  Y&#8217;all pray my strength in the Lord.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>What happens to a dream deferred&#8230;?</title>
		<link>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/what-happens-to-a-dream-deferred/</link>
		<comments>http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/what-happens-to-a-dream-deferred/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 05:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>elderj</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[dreams]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Eugene Cho]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[miscellaneous]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[random]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elderj.wordpress.com/?p=187</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some of you who have followed this blog may remember a rather odd posting some time back wherein I recounted an even odder dream starring Eugene Cho and Wayne Park.  Here&#8217;s the recap:
In the dream, I and Eugene are walking through what appears to be conference center of some kind, but which really looks [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=elderj.wordpress.com&blog=429544&post=187&subd=elderj&ref=&feed=1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class='snap_preview'><br /><p>
<a href='http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/what-happens-to-a-dream-deferred/eugene-cho/' title='eugene cho'><img width="131" height="150" src="http://elderj.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/eugene-cho.jpg?w=131&#038;h=150" class="attachment-thumbnail" alt="" title="eugene cho" /></a>
<a href='http://elderj.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/what-happens-to-a-dream-deferred/laughing/' title='laughing'><img width="122" height="150" src="http://elderj.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/laughing.jpg?w=122&#038;h=150" class="attachment-thumbnail" alt="" title="laughing" /></a>
<br />
Some of you who have followed this blog may remember a rather <a href="http://elderj.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/what-dreams-may-come/">odd posting some time back wherein I recounted an even odder dream starring <a href="http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/">Eugene Cho </a>and Wayne Park.</a>  Here&#8217;s the recap:</p>
<blockquote><p>In the dream, I and Eugene are walking through what appears to be conference center of some kind, but which really looks like a student center on a college campus. As we walk I am explaining to him something about this “event” that we are apparently both a part of and which I am evidently in charge of coordinating. While walking through we pass by a number of rooms in which various student gospel choirs are preparing themselves for a concert. We also passed by one of my current student who I recognized only from the back of his head, as he was busy studying. Then (this is really weird) we passed by <a href="http://waynepark.wordpress.com/">Wayne Park</a>, who I have also never met, but who is sitting with his laptop typing something. Eugene greets him, and I am surprised they know each other, but say nothing as I remember that they do indeed know one another. All the time we’re walking, I keep thinking to myself, “Eugene is a lot shorter than I thought he would be,” and “wow, his hair is really interesting.”</p>
<p>We finally arrive at “the room” where Eugene’s presentation is to take place. It is a very nice room set up amphitheater style with large red very modern sofa type seating arranged in a semi-circle. Eugene comments that it is just like his church, but I am confused because I thought his church met in some other kind of space, but again I say nothing. Of course I’ve never seen his church either. He leaves the room to go get some “equipment,” and I again wonder why he isn’t taller than I thought he would be. My last thought before waking? I really like this room.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well this dream is a dream deferred no longer as I had the opportunity (nay only a few short moments ago) to actually meet Eugene Cho while he was at a conference in Knoxville.  Some of the interesting similarities:<br />
   &#8211; the conference he was attending was on a college campus<br />
   &#8211; the conference was in a city in my &#8220;territory&#8221; (i.e. I could be thought of as &#8220;hosting&#8221; him)<br />
   &#8211; Eugene <em>is</em> shorter than I thought he would be (which is weird because I had <strong>no</strong> idea of his height whatsoever)<br />
   &#8211; his hair is really interesting<br />
   &#8211; we ate a restaurant with red chairs</p>
<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m a prophet!!!</p>
<p>Anyway&#8230; it was great fun meeting Eugene in person. We had some good conversation simply getting to know one another in person as opposed to through the blogosphere and I left the conversation feeling a bit sharpened in my own journey.  We discussed some people we know in common, and reflected a bit on the temptations of valuing the appearance of wisdom (or spirituality or depth) over actually being wise.  I hope to soon travel to the west coast to take him up on his offer of coffee.  </p>
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